I know modes, basic theory...but a bit stuck
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"F*ck what mode you're playing in. You got 12 notes and how you want to play them is up to you" – Eddie Van Halen
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I remember stumbling on that quote years ago. While I didn't have the confidence or experience to "just go for it", as Eddie implied, it resonated with me and stuck in the back of my head.
Unable to implement his wisdom at the time, I carried on worrying about theory and applying it correctly, e.g., using this mode over that chord and that mode over the other chord, hitting chord tones, and playing the changes. Honestly, if I wasn't doing any of these things, I was either not good enough or was doing it wrong. No. What I was doing wrong was not playing.
Finally, I stopped getting bogged down with it. Now I learn what I like the sound of, get creative with it and figure out how to make it sound "right" by playing and experimenting. I learn enough theory, but not in a way that dictates how I play; perhaps via musical sensibilities and some serendipity, I do those things I was once worried about. But most importantly, I now have fun. So, yeah. Twelve notes. That's all. Go wild with them and do as you please.
If you get in the zone enough, it's possible to hit the right notes on any chord, just by aural skills alone. To solo without fear though, I really need to know the chord changes, or at least what chord is coming next. You alluded to playing the chord tones in your original post - there isn't a huge amount to it more than that - chord scales maybe, chromatic approach notes, enclosures...
The modal approach has never really worked for me - I find it too confusing. Even though I know the scales, my ear just takes over.
The modal approach has never really worked for me - I find it too confusing. Even though I know the scales, my ear just takes over.
Worth checking out Open Studio/You'll Hear It. All on keyboard, but entertaining and Adam and Peter are masters of theory.
Take a look at Jack Ruch's YouTube channel. He's predominantly a jazz/blues player but a lot of his tuition videos may help take what you already know and move it forward. His teaching style is pretty clear and thorough too.imalrightjack said:So, I know my modes. I can focus in on basic chord tones when playing lead and understand chord construction.
What next to help me play more freely over non-diatonic progressions? I tried to go down a jazz path but I don't listen to it enough to get it under my skin to any meaningful level. As somebody more into shred, I am a bit lost in terms of how to understand what I can play over what, when it gets out of basic diatonic stuff.
It might sound like a silly question but do most guitarists playing this stuff analyse the underlying progressions before taking on the lead? I manage to play by feel/ear on some things but sound like a twit when it's anything more complex.
Any book/online course you might recommend?
I think it depends ...a lot is diatonic so when you get the key it's just about making good melodies ...iff playing over a lot of changes I think arpeggios are the way to go ...and not sweep arpeggios but just one octave and really mess about and get good melodies
I think a lot of the time music is made to look complicated which sometimes it is ..but iff you just look at small ideas and make them into bigger ideas I think that's where it's at
I think a lot of the time music is made to look complicated which sometimes it is ..but iff you just look at small ideas and make them into bigger ideas I think that's where it's at
So I'm gonna be 'that guy' (unless someone else already has been, I haven't read the whole thread to be honest) and ask what you mean when you say 'I know my modes'.
Do you know the scale shapes / patterns on guitar?
That's not really knowing the modes.
If you play A Dorian over a G Major chord, you are not playing A Dorian, you are playing G Major starting on A.
If you play A Dorian over Am7, this is much closer to the point.
It sounds like you are maybe asking: 'I know the scales / sequence, but not sure how to really incorporate them in a meaningful way'. But I could be way off.
As you have probably come across, rather than thinking of A Dorian as G Major but starting on A, it is much more informative to think of A Dorian as A minor with a sharp six, this gives you a much clearer picture of what is actually going on.
The loose example I used to give all of my students: (it doesn't really mean anything, but illustrates the point)
Take the number: 1234
The next 'mode' of that number is: 2341
Yes it has the same constituent parts, yes its 'in the same order', but it is a completely different number.
You wouldn't really think of the number 2341 and being the number 1234 but just starting in a different place.
Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't :lol:
Do you know the scale shapes / patterns on guitar?
That's not really knowing the modes.
If you play A Dorian over a G Major chord, you are not playing A Dorian, you are playing G Major starting on A.
If you play A Dorian over Am7, this is much closer to the point.
It sounds like you are maybe asking: 'I know the scales / sequence, but not sure how to really incorporate them in a meaningful way'. But I could be way off.
As you have probably come across, rather than thinking of A Dorian as G Major but starting on A, it is much more informative to think of A Dorian as A minor with a sharp six, this gives you a much clearer picture of what is actually going on.
The loose example I used to give all of my students: (it doesn't really mean anything, but illustrates the point)
Take the number: 1234
The next 'mode' of that number is: 2341
Yes it has the same constituent parts, yes its 'in the same order', but it is a completely different number.
You wouldn't really think of the number 2341 and being the number 1234 but just starting in a different place.
Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't :lol:
I’ll chuck a couple of things into the mix that helped me.
Try jamming over a static chord, something easy like an Amin7. Next, think about all the basic triads in the key, so Am, Bmin7b5, C, Dmin, Emin, F and G. Take each one of those chords and use that every now and then as your tonal base to superimpose over the Amin7, it can be fun and you will sneakily teach yourself the whole fretboard.
Try jamming over a static chord, something easy like an Amin7. Next, think about all the basic triads in the key, so Am, Bmin7b5, C, Dmin, Emin, F and G. Take each one of those chords and use that every now and then as your tonal base to superimpose over the Amin7, it can be fun and you will sneakily teach yourself the whole fretboard.
If you then want to make some more exotic sounds have a look at the ascending form of the melodic minor, that’ll sound interesting but then if you bang it up a fret you’ll gain access to altered tones for ‘outside’ playing. Sounds more complicated than it is. Hope that’s of some use.
Biggest tip I can give anyone for improvisation, listen to the track you want to improvise over on loop for a few days. Don't even pick your instrument up, sing over it or hum over it. Get some ideas together and phrases.
Make sure you can play what you're singing as you're playing it ( this takes a lot of ear training and practice with scales).
Then tackle the improv.
Don't jump in cold, it's a suicide mission, doesn't matter how good you are, it will be better if you do this.
Make sure you can play what you're singing as you're playing it ( this takes a lot of ear training and practice with scales).
Then tackle the improv.
Don't jump in cold, it's a suicide mission, doesn't matter how good you are, it will be better if you do this.
Barry Harris (RIP) was playing in the bebop era and I suspect because there were so many musicians playing together 8hrs a day, there was little need for theory - more of a sink or swim on the bandstand. As he got older and formalised a framework it wasn’t just retro fitting to the aural tradition - in fact I find application of some aspects like a rich vein of ideas to be mined. My ear would not have led me to many of the discoveries that have come from his ideas (tho I have fairly useless ears)
So for me theory can be retrospective or push the boundary of creativity (so to speak).
Lot of great info here already but I'll chuck my tuppence in as well, just because.
Much like diatonic harmony has its common movements and progressions (I, IV, V,...ii, V, I.....I, vi, IV, V....etc), non-diatonic harmony is also much more likely to be used in certain ways.
Non-diatonic harmony isn't just a free for all, requiring instant shifting from one tonal centre to another in a completely unrelated way. At least, not when it's done well it isn't!!
One of my favourite pieces of advice was given to me during a guitar lesson with Nick Johnston, and he put it as "When it comes to guitar playing, you are what you eat". What he was getting at is that we as players are unavoidably influenced by whatever we listen to, so if you're trying to learn gypsy jazz but spend your days listening to Polyphia then you're working against yourself.
I'll go a little further on this as well, because as a guitar teacher the use of "non-diatonic" here sounds almost like it's being used as a genre and that raises a flag for me. Non-diatonic covers a huge range of stuff, from simple borrowed chords like a minor IV chord or a secondary dominant all the way up to atonal craziness and serialism. By all means, if you're looking for advice on a way to tackle a specific movement or progression then absolutely carry on down the rabbit hole. But asking for advice on "non-diatonic" playing is almost as broad a question as asking for advice on diatonic playing.
Diatonic stuff sounds nicer anyway, that's why keys exist ;-)
Much like diatonic harmony has its common movements and progressions (I, IV, V,...ii, V, I.....I, vi, IV, V....etc), non-diatonic harmony is also much more likely to be used in certain ways.
Non-diatonic harmony isn't just a free for all, requiring instant shifting from one tonal centre to another in a completely unrelated way. At least, not when it's done well it isn't!!
One of my favourite pieces of advice was given to me during a guitar lesson with Nick Johnston, and he put it as "When it comes to guitar playing, you are what you eat". What he was getting at is that we as players are unavoidably influenced by whatever we listen to, so if you're trying to learn gypsy jazz but spend your days listening to Polyphia then you're working against yourself.
I'll go a little further on this as well, because as a guitar teacher the use of "non-diatonic" here sounds almost like it's being used as a genre and that raises a flag for me. Non-diatonic covers a huge range of stuff, from simple borrowed chords like a minor IV chord or a secondary dominant all the way up to atonal craziness and serialism. By all means, if you're looking for advice on a way to tackle a specific movement or progression then absolutely carry on down the rabbit hole. But asking for advice on "non-diatonic" playing is almost as broad a question as asking for advice on diatonic playing.
Diatonic stuff sounds nicer anyway, that's why keys exist ;-)
Diatonic can be fairly simple especially if you know the 7 3 notes per string scale shapes.
So if you move from C Major to Dm, you can use the C Major and then the D Dorian shape (even though it is all C Major notes), it's where the semi tones are in relation to the underlying chord. BUT......
You could also play the C Mixolydian or the C Lydian shapes over the C Major (so implying either a dominant 7 or Major 7 with a b5).
In which case you would in case a) follow with the D Aeolian.
In the C Lydian case following with Dm you are going "out of key" as for Lydian it would normally be followed by a D7, But in this case you could play say the Dm Pentatonic with a slight bend on the F to F#. It gets a bit spicy with the Dom7 of the pentatonic, so either avoid or ascending play the major 7 but descending play Dom7.
The more complex the underlying chord the few choices you have when playing diatonic.
So if you move from C Major to Dm, you can use the C Major and then the D Dorian shape (even though it is all C Major notes), it's where the semi tones are in relation to the underlying chord. BUT......
You could also play the C Mixolydian or the C Lydian shapes over the C Major (so implying either a dominant 7 or Major 7 with a b5).
In which case you would in case a) follow with the D Aeolian.
In the C Lydian case following with Dm you are going "out of key" as for Lydian it would normally be followed by a D7, But in this case you could play say the Dm Pentatonic with a slight bend on the F to F#. It gets a bit spicy with the Dom7 of the pentatonic, so either avoid or ascending play the major 7 but descending play Dom7.
The more complex the underlying chord the few choices you have when playing diatonic.
https://youtu.be/cXjrLB1yaT4?si=GrZbWNc3E8DESPlT