Finding your 'identity'...
Comments
I like to hear different vocabularies in a genre, so bit of jazz in blues etc really makes it interesting if it fits and the only way your going to know that is by doing it. The more you try the more your voice will develop. I would also try it in the covers band. The important thing is listen to the result , and ask for criticism to help you develop.
Have you read 'Effortless Mastery' by Kenny Werner? It's about the psychology of performing.
Disclaimer: I admit that I don't subscribe to everything he teaches, and it's it's all a bit too 'woo-woo' and mystical for me, some of It's to do wirh meditation and such which I don't really go in for.
But, the ideas in the book are relevant to what you're asking and worth considering. It's pitched mainly at Jazz improvisation but you could apply it to anything. The gist of it is that most people sabotage themselves by 'trying to sound good', and the thing is to turn off the inner critical voice and just let the music come out without effort (obviously I'm just summarising, it's a bit more involved than that).
Recognising those things and noticing them when they happen definitely helped me develop. I'm not a great player and have some pronounced limitations, but it's helped me to get into the mental space where I can take a solo in front of other people, and I'm able to just express myself and not feel a burden to show off or overthink in the moment (not all the time! My inner voice still chips in sometimes, asking me to play that new bit I've just learned or whatever... a bit less though.).
Disclaimer: I admit that I don't subscribe to everything he teaches, and it's it's all a bit too 'woo-woo' and mystical for me, some of It's to do wirh meditation and such which I don't really go in for.
But, the ideas in the book are relevant to what you're asking and worth considering. It's pitched mainly at Jazz improvisation but you could apply it to anything. The gist of it is that most people sabotage themselves by 'trying to sound good', and the thing is to turn off the inner critical voice and just let the music come out without effort (obviously I'm just summarising, it's a bit more involved than that).
Recognising those things and noticing them when they happen definitely helped me develop. I'm not a great player and have some pronounced limitations, but it's helped me to get into the mental space where I can take a solo in front of other people, and I'm able to just express myself and not feel a burden to show off or overthink in the moment (not all the time! My inner voice still chips in sometimes, asking me to play that new bit I've just learned or whatever... a bit less though.).
I did time in a blues band for around a year...I didn't realise that playing so much 12 bar would have such an indelible effect on my playing...I begrudgingly suppose that's a good thing because I was immersed in it for a while.
The immersion thing is relevant here: I've seen quite a few 'I wanna learn some jazz' posts recently. I always think 'how immersed are you...how much do you listen to?'. It's got to be in you to come out (especially in a live setting).
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The immersion thing is relevant here: I've seen quite a few 'I wanna learn some jazz' posts recently. I always think 'how immersed are you...how much do you listen to?'. It's got to be in you to come out (especially in a live setting).
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Thanks all for the great replies.
@digitalkettle - I completely agree, you must be listening to music that you wish to make. It's like trying to learn a language without actually hearing native speakers speak it.
@supportact - I've heard of that book numerous times and never got round to reading it! Maybe now is the time to buy a copy.
@digitalkettle - I completely agree, you must be listening to music that you wish to make. It's like trying to learn a language without actually hearing native speakers speak it.
@supportact - I've heard of that book numerous times and never got round to reading it! Maybe now is the time to buy a copy.
Finding your identity is about playing without having to think about the notes first. You hear an idea in your head, and go for it trusting that your fingers will follow. Some things can be pre-planned, such as the opening phrase of a solo, but the rest is hearing it and playing it without your brain getting in the way.
Obviously there needs to be a degree of immersion in the music, a lot of listening. There also needs to be a lot of play so that finger movements come fluidly, like every thing it comes with practice
2 things related to this that have pre-occupied me this week.
Reading Sheryl Crow's guitarist quote about it's often playing the right note at the right time... and more often than not that's ALL it's about rather than blistering displays of chops.
And in the post live vids of your band - there's one from Goldtop playing Walking By Myself. We do that one in my band and I gamely try and do the Moore all guns blazing thing he does whereas Goldtop took a different approach and had this lovely languid style on the solos and rhythm fills. I could tell he had his developed his own identity from just sheer playing - and a lot of it live.
How to develop an identity. No better way than in the heat of battle live. There's just no substitute for playing in the moment for a couple of hours in a night regularly. It's an inconvenient truth and major hassle a lot of time surrounding it but... I get schooled every time I play out - I learnt a whopper of a lesson just last night - and I've been playing in the current band for 9 years.!!
Reading Sheryl Crow's guitarist quote about it's often playing the right note at the right time... and more often than not that's ALL it's about rather than blistering displays of chops.
And in the post live vids of your band - there's one from Goldtop playing Walking By Myself. We do that one in my band and I gamely try and do the Moore all guns blazing thing he does whereas Goldtop took a different approach and had this lovely languid style on the solos and rhythm fills. I could tell he had his developed his own identity from just sheer playing - and a lot of it live.
How to develop an identity. No better way than in the heat of battle live. There's just no substitute for playing in the moment for a couple of hours in a night regularly. It's an inconvenient truth and major hassle a lot of time surrounding it but... I get schooled every time I play out - I learnt a whopper of a lesson just last night - and I've been playing in the current band for 9 years.!!
Spill…this is the thread for it! ;)CaseOfAce said:…
I get schooled every time I play out - I learnt a whopper of a lesson just last night - and I've been playing in the current band for 9 years.!!
Thank you - this is such an important point about playing out and 'getting schooled' - that happens to me every time I play out.
True.Roland said:Finding your identity is about playing without having to think about the notes first. You hear an idea in your head, and go for it trusting that your fingers will follow. Some things can be pre-planned, such as the opening phrase of a solo, but the rest is hearing it and playing it without your brain getting in the way.Obviously there needs to be a degree of immersion in the music, a lot of listening. There also needs to be a lot of play so that finger movements come fluidly, like every thing it comes with practice
I think it should be stipulated that no amount of practice is particularly useful unless it is relevant to the gig you're going to play.
For example, practicing my shred techniques is almost useless when I've got to play Sex on Fire for my gig.
We really should practice what we 'preach'.
I'm at a stage in life where I want to finally make a go of being an 'actual artist'. I'm no longer interested in corporate function work. I want to be a legit player in a specific genre.
That's not to say I don't respect or value function work - it takes real discipline and attention to detail - it's just not what makes me tick right now!
I've played in quite a variety of styles in different bands over the years and no matter which band I pretty sure I just sound the same in each :smile:
@ElevensLouder I relate to your post a lot. I think the problem is that you have few limitations, therefore many options. This isn't a bad thing but takes discipline or deep searching to connect with your musical nature.
I always try and step back and listen - what does the music need? Why am I playing this part / playing this solo?
I always try and step back and listen - what does the music need? Why am I playing this part / playing this solo?
You have an identity; whether or not it is the one you want is another thing. You sound frustrated and I guess we all get frustrated sometimes because we could be "better", but that's what should drive us to be better.
It sounds like I'm nowhere near you on Planet Shred, so be thankful you have the tools to express yourself. It just sounds like you're struggling with yourself more than anything. A touch of imposter syndrome perhaps? Perhaps talk to a counsellor about this because it doesn't feel like a guitar issue.
You talk about it being difficult to seamlessly integrate complex licks of great players, but do you think they were thinking "I'll put a complex bit in now" or do you think that was just the sound they heard in their head so that's what they played?
Another book you might like is Zen Guitar.
It sounds like I'm nowhere near you on Planet Shred, so be thankful you have the tools to express yourself. It just sounds like you're struggling with yourself more than anything. A touch of imposter syndrome perhaps? Perhaps talk to a counsellor about this because it doesn't feel like a guitar issue.
You talk about it being difficult to seamlessly integrate complex licks of great players, but do you think they were thinking "I'll put a complex bit in now" or do you think that was just the sound they heard in their head so that's what they played?
Another book you might like is Zen Guitar.
If I could sum it up it would be "slow down".digitalkettle said:Spill…this is the thread for it! ;)CaseOfAce said:…
I get schooled every time I play out - I learnt a whopper of a lesson just last night - and I've been playing in the current band for 9 years.!!
I've been playing a lot of the same songs for years and my intros are rushed... which pushed up the tempo for the rest of the band throughout the song. Bad habit. Sometimes you don't realise until the bass player shoots you as a look as your about to embark on one of Mr. Adams' finest ditties... =)
As topdog said, it might be that your natural sounds or identity aren't actually what you would like (certainly the case for me), so it's worth clearing in your mind whether you want to develop your natural tendencies and styles to become your identity, or want to devleop an identity based on practice, listening, and more practice?
With my piano playing at weddings and stuff, my "style" comes across as very natural but I had to learn how to do that first off, it's not my natural way of playing at all. I've done it often enough and long enough now for it to appear completely natural and instinctive but realistically, I have sat there and worked out what I wanted to sound like and then listened and played until it got to that point.
Some people are fortunate that music just spills out of them that they like - the rest of us just have to work at it I think.
With my piano playing at weddings and stuff, my "style" comes across as very natural but I had to learn how to do that first off, it's not my natural way of playing at all. I've done it often enough and long enough now for it to appear completely natural and instinctive but realistically, I have sat there and worked out what I wanted to sound like and then listened and played until it got to that point.
Some people are fortunate that music just spills out of them that they like - the rest of us just have to work at it I think.
You have my attention. Sod being tasteful over blues changes, post Blues covers! \m/ElevensLouder said:I'd say my biggest influence early on was Blues Saraceno and many of his stylistic quirks have found their way into my phrasing.
I've spent many years pursuing shred technique and fusion/jazz vocabulary.
Seriously, can I hear you play that sort of thing anywhere?
Sounds like you're listening to rock guitar players playing blues. Try jimmy dawkins fast fingers, son seal first album and live and burning. I can't think of any blues players who actually play fast runs. I think in blues the guitar is primarily and always a rhythm instrument especially when playing lead, SRV knew that even though he played fast his groove is always deeeep. People try to copy his speed and just sound like note salad.
There's my rambling thoughts for you.
There's my rambling thoughts for you.
I'm working on some stuff to present to the world - I'm not there yet with my style, hence this thread topic. I'm in a blues outfit that is in it's early days, but I don't want to share anything yet as I'm not happy with what I'm doing in it...yet.DLM said:You have my attention. Sod being tasteful over blues changes, post Blues covers! \m/ElevensLouder said:I'd say my biggest influence early on was Blues Saraceno and many of his stylistic quirks have found their way into my phrasing.
I've spent many years pursuing shred technique and fusion/jazz vocabulary.
Seriously, can I hear you play that sort of thing anywhere?
Ahh cool - I didn't realise there was an area I could post videos of our bands. I'll look into putting some clips in there. Thanks.CaseOfAce said:2 things related to this that have pre-occupied me this week.
Reading Sheryl Crow's guitarist quote about it's often playing the right note at the right time... and more often than not that's ALL it's about rather than blistering displays of chops.
And in the post live vids of your band - there's one from Goldtop playing Walking By Myself. We do that one in my band and I gamely try and do the Moore all guns blazing thing he does whereas Goldtop took a different approach and had this lovely languid style on the solos and rhythm fills. I could tell he had his developed his own identity from just sheer playing - and a lot of it live.
How to develop an identity. No better way than in the heat of battle live. There's just no substitute for playing in the moment for a couple of hours in a night regularly. It's an inconvenient truth and major hassle a lot of time surrounding it but... I get schooled every time I play out - I learnt a whopper of a lesson just last night - and I've been playing in the current band for 9 years.!!
Totally agree - playing live is such an eye opener. In the practice room you're able to work things out without any of the pressures of a live gig. You can explore different genres, avenues, ideas etc that you wouldn't necessarily be able to in a gig scenario.
This may be a bit of a rambling post, so bare with me...
I'm in my early/mid 40s, been playing guitar for about 30 years. Have had various influences along the way, dabbled in classical guitar to about grade 8 standard, jazz, shred etc etc.
I'd say my biggest influence early on was Blues Saraceno and many of his stylistic quirks have found their way into my phrasing.
I've spent many years pursuing shred technique and fusion/jazz vocabulary.
I play in a covers band doing the usual stuff (brightside etc) and that gig is played pretty much to the record, so none of my chops are required, and that's totally fine by me.
I also play in a blues band - now this is where my question (not sure I even have a question at this point - bare with...).
The blues band is where I can let my hair down, so to speak. However, I'm at a crossroads (pun intended).
I cringe to death when I try to insert jazzy vocabulary into this music, it just sounds so forced to me, like I'm trying to show to people that I know some notes outside of the usual language of blues. I also feel this with shredding too.
But I listen to guys like Eric Stekel and he absolutely burns on these tunes and sounds great. (obviously he's a better player which helps)
I'm learning that the skill is not in being able to use your chops, but in knowing how and when NOT to use them.
I'm really rambling - sorry.
Sometimes I'll be soloing and I'm playing some nice phrases, then a little voice will enter the chat, saying to me 'do the fast thing...' and it'll effectively ruin my flow and I might end up on a bad note or just a sloppy bit of phrasing.
I think that voice is called Ego..?
Another side to it is sound. All the great players have a sound all their own. You can tell Gary Moore from BB King immediately etc etc. How do we achieve this?
It's not really the equipment - you can tell Eric Johnson even when he's not playing through his rig.
It's in the fingers - is it talent? Is it just simply unattainable for mere mortals?
Sorry for the rambling post.
Please feel free to springboard off of any points I've raised and go off on tangents - I think the issues I've raised are quite subjective, so perhaps we can just bounce abstract ideas off one another here, don't feel obliged to try to specifically answer my questions, perhaps it's just rhetorical...
EDIT to correct spelling