Modellers vs Valves

I went to support an old friend playing live this last week. He has traditionally played through a Fender Hotrod with pedals. His sound has always been pleasing.
Over the past couple of years he has moved over to a mid range modelling unit and spent much time tuning his tones.
To my ears from the audience I sensed the gain tones were a little fizzy when soloing. When he back off the volume the tone didn't really clean up so well as I recalled from his amplifier days. Also the driven notes seemed to sustain into one another so when he solo,d the performance lacked dynamics. When dropping back into rhythm playing the note separation was not as significant as tones I remember from his amplifier days. In addition the guitar seemed to get lost in the band mix.
Out of band the general tone seemed OK, but for me his whole performance would have been better with an amp and pedals.
My question is this....DO ANY FRETBOARD MEMBERS EITHER HAVE A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE AS PLAYERS OR SPECTATORS?

My conclusion is that judging from what I perceived from a very accomplished player modellers are not there yet and hopefully tube amps still have a future.

What does your friend think? That’s possibly the most important aspect of your question. If he’s happy & thinks it sounds good for his needs, surely that’s exactly the right thing?

Tubes amps will always have a future because they can pretty much go on forever and are, for the most part cheap. I paid more for my Pod Go then I did for my Fender  Hot Rod, My Marshall, my Bugera and nearly my Mesa  for example. 
Whether you use either is personal taste or a decision based on weight or portability maybe.

I am in the "prefer a real valve amp" camp myself but I don't really give the gear a lot of thought unless it goes wrong. Other people enjoy trying new tech and are happy to go on a modelling journey ... tweaking patches and getting their ducks in a row for the setlist. I'm more of a turn up, turn the amp on, hit a few pedals here and there and it sounds fine to me. 

But there are also more complex reasons for using modellers .. the style of music, automatic midi patch changes, digital pitch transposing etc 

Modellers vs valve amps and pedals? Neither, I prefer solid-state amps and digital multi-FX.

While I think there is *some* truth in the idea that modellers don't work as well as valve amps in a band mix - for genuine electronics/physics reasons - I think it's largely a settings issue.

I personally prefer using a simple amp which can be solid state or valve, but I had lots more compliments about my tone when using modellers. 

I've had more compliments about tone when using modellers.

It also means I can have a folder on my computer called 'modelling'.

But they are harder to dial in than valve amps and they require a different thought process. And, of course, some do some things better than others.

My modeller usage is about pragmatism - when I play, where I play, and how I play. I think the tones I get are good but so where they through a Marshall too!

I use both depending on:
=> The venue
=> How much my back hurts 
=> My mood


I like my tone very slightly better with the valve amp.

Most of the audience neither know, nor care.

Realistically in a pub band they care about 
=> Do we play a few songs that they like and can sing the chorus to
=> How long is the queue at the bar

It's just a non discussion these days.

Your friend likes his rig.

Happy days.

Edit. Two frets from the op.

We've had this conversation so many times, is this a troll?

ICBM said:

While I think there is *some* truth in the idea that modellers don't work as well as valve amps in a band mix - for genuine electronics/physics reasons - I think it's largely a settings issue.

This is the truth, in my job I come across both often, and can honestly say it’s all down to the programming . A good patch sounds fantastic, a bad one sounds awful. The same with all amps, except a Fender valve job which is always too bloody loud

I would add, when programming your modeller for a gig, don’t do it in your front room. For the sound to be believable in a large space, programme it in a large space.

After struggling to get my Marshall Bluebreaker out of the venue last night, down a a slushy/icy path and into my car, modellers are becoming slightly more attractive.

maltingsaudio said:

The same with all amps, except a Fender valve job which is always too bloody loud

lol

I even got told to turn down my unmic'ed '59 5F1 Champ once :).

(To be fair, it was in a small piano bar.)

maltingsaudio said:

I would add, when programming your modeller for a gig, don’t do it in your front room. For the sound to be believable in a large space, programme it in a large space.

Even more importantly, do it in a band mix at rehearsal. This can be a bit trying for the patience of your bandmates, but it's the only sure way really - and it also helps you get familiar with editing quickly and accurately on the fly, which is still sometimes necessary at the venue. Years ago I used a Boss SE-70 as my main sound box into a clean amp, and although the interface is a typical parameter buttons/rotary dial affair, I got familiar enough with it that I could edit it between songs with barely a pause. That takes dedication to a specific unit though, and enough time to really learn it.

As an audience member I miss not having the sense of location of each instrument when everything comes through a PA. It feels like your watching people miming.
I do however like being able to hear the vocals rather than the drums and amps loudness wars obliterating them.
As a player, amps every time for the interaction of sound and strings to get feedback 

MikkiMcMurderer said:

As an audience member I miss not having the sense of location of each instrument when everything comes through a PA. It feels like your watching people miming.
I do however like being able to hear the vocals rather than the drums and amps loudness wars obliterating them.

That’s an observation which I completely agree with. In a small space where you should be able to hear the instruments (including drums) without the PA, I think having individual amps gives more of a sense of space, and a better mix - assuming the band know how to do it properly (they often don’t). In a big venue where you aren’t really hearing the amps over the FOH, it doesn’t make any difference.

I have setups for each situation… I certainly relish cranking the amp in a rock and R&B band as the physical feedback plays into the playing experience and sound.  

Foxman66 said:

I went to support an old friend playing live this last week. He has traditionally played through a Fender Hotrod with pedals. His sound has always been pleasing.
Over the past couple of years he has moved over to a mid range modelling unit and spent much time tuning his tones.
To my ears from the audience I sensed the gain tones were a little fizzy when soloing. When he back off the volume the tone didn't really clean up so well as I recalled from his amplifier days. Also the driven notes seemed to sustain into one another so when he solo,d the performance lacked dynamics. When dropping back into rhythm playing the note separation was not as significant as tones I remember from his amplifier days. In addition the guitar seemed to get lost in the band mix.
Out of band the general tone seemed OK, but for me his whole performance would have been better with an amp and pedals.
My question is this....DO ANY FRETBOARD MEMBERS EITHER HAVE A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE AS PLAYERS OR SPECTATORS?

My conclusion is that judging from what I perceived from a very accomplished player modellers are not there yet and hopefully tube amps still have a future.

The modellers I have heard or tried in a band  situation have always sounded flat to me ...could be settings or me just stuck iny ways but I always think valve amps sound better ....modellers have their uses though ..but for me not in a live band 

I went to see The Ultimate Classic Rock Show a few weeks ago. I sort of know the guitarist in the band and know that he was very much in love with his Mesa Triaxis rig.

However, since we were up front I couldn't help noticing he was using a Helix Floor unit.

My impressions from the show were that the tones through the PA were excellent, no issue with the guitar tones at all and the quality of what I was hearing was spot on.

But, it was a strange experience, usually at a gig that size you get the sense of air moving and I just didn't at this show.  That's not to say it was in any way bad, but I couldn't make the connection between what I was hearing and what I was feeling.

I've noticed a similar phenomenon at other shows where they've employed a silent stage, whether or not real amps or modellers were used.  It just feels like something is missing, although the actual sound being made is what you would expect it to be.