Is anyone using these guitar cab style FRFR speakers for live backline?
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All of this thinking is making me slightly reluctant to go down the 'FRFR in Guitar Cab format' route...it sounds like people seem to be saying they are good but still sound/feel like a PA speaker. Which is unsurprising I guess, as that's kind of what they are. Are we being slightly 'duped' by the manufacturers into thinking this is more of an innovative product than it really is? I'd like to try one. I suspect I would end up going back to a power amp -> cab setup eventually but if I never try one I'll always wonder.
Most FRFR in guitar cab format are solely designed to reproduce the sound that you are passing into it.. which is, in most modelling cases, a modelled amp + fx into modelled Mic'd guitar cabinet...
I'm not sure if this is for you..
I think the L6 Power Cab was supposed to be fed a "speaker-sim off" signal to allow use of its own cab modelling to give you the "amp in the room" that some folk want.
The Laney, Fender and, I suspect, many others are trying to provide a more aesthetic option to simply using a wedge monitor to allow guitarists to "monitor" what they want to send it... if that makes sense?
It's not an innovative product it is just a PA speaker.gearaddict said:All of this thinking is making me slightly reluctant to go down the 'FRFR in Guitar Cab format' route...it sounds like people seem to be saying they are good but still sound/feel like a PA speaker. Which is unsurprising I guess, as that's kind of what they are. Are we being slightly 'duped' by the manufacturers into thinking this is more of an innovative product than it really is? I'd like to try one. I suspect I would end up going back to a power amp -> cab setup eventually but if I never try one I'll always wonder.
My personal best modelling rig for gigging was Vox Tonelab into Marshall EL84 20\20 power amp into stereo 4 x 12 cab. But not exactly light :)
I notice the HB PA speaker style one above (https://harleybenton.com/product/frfr-112a/) has on board cab sims, so presumably can also be fed a speaker sim off signal. Not sure if there's much benefit in that...interesting that they include it though. I'm not sure why the cab providing the cab sim rather than the modeller would provide a more amp-in-the-room experience. I suppose they just tune their IRs to try and replicate that.bloodandtears said:I think the L6 Power Cab was supposed to be fed a "speaker-sim off" signal to allow use of its own cab modelling to give you the "amp in the room" that some folk want.
gearaddict said:I notice the HB PA speaker style one above (https://harleybenton.com/product/frfr-112a/) has on board cab sims, so presumably can also be fed a speaker sim off signal. Not sure if there's much benefit in that...interesting that they include it though. I'm not sure why the cab providing the cab sim rather than the modeller would provide a more amp-in-the-room experience. I suppose they just tune their IRs to try and replicate that.bloodandtears said:I think the L6 Power Cab was supposed to be fed a "speaker-sim off" signal to allow use of its own cab modelling to give you the "amp in the room" that some folk want.
correct.. I'd assume it won't have the "mic" modelling element thus trying to sound like how the cab in the room would sound??!?!
Most modellers use an IR, which is created by putting a mic in front of a speaker. So it’s no surprise that a modeller sounds like a guitar amp mic’d up through a PA. In any large venue that’s not a problem. In a small venue, where the guitar is not going through the PA, and on stages where you’d use an amp and cabinet mic’d up for the PA, then it will sound different. It’s mainly guitarists who notice or care. Audience members are used to hearing their music via recordings, or at large venues.gearaddict said:...it sounds like people seem to be saying they are good but still sound/feel like a PA speaker. ...
Yeah, I get that. I suppose what I'm trying to figure out is if these new guitar cab form factor FRFR speakers are smoke and mirrors or not. I've not had a chance to try one so I'm just going on what others say about them. General consensus seems to be that they sound much more like a 'cab in the room', while still overall sounding like a PA speaker. Which I'm guessing is partly the housing they are in and partly whatever eq tweaks have been introduced by the manufacturers.
When I played the Fr-12 last night it sounded good! & i`m still not sure how much of the `difference` is placebo effect by knowing its a FRFRgearaddict said:Yeah, I get that. I suppose what I'm trying to figure out is if these new guitar cab form factor FRFR speakers are smoke and mirrors or not. I've not had a chance to try one so I'm just going on what others say about them. General consensus seems to be that they sound much more like a 'cab in the room', while still overall sounding like a PA speaker. Which I'm guessing is partly the housing they are in and partly whatever eq tweaks have been introduced by the manufacturers.
If you`re interested, I run the Vic Jam in Swindon - it looks like you`re in Reading, so not a million miles! Next one Wed 18th Dec 9pm. It`ll be the house amp there again.
Thanks!newi123 said:When I played the Fr-12 last night it sounded good! & i`m still not sure how much of the `difference` is placebo effect by knowing its a FRFRgearaddict said:Yeah, I get that. I suppose what I'm trying to figure out is if these new guitar cab form factor FRFR speakers are smoke and mirrors or not. I've not had a chance to try one so I'm just going on what others say about them. General consensus seems to be that they sound much more like a 'cab in the room', while still overall sounding like a PA speaker. Which I'm guessing is partly the housing they are in and partly whatever eq tweaks have been introduced by the manufacturers.
If you`re interested, I run the Vic Jam in Swindon - it looks like you`re in Reading, so not a million miles! Next one Wed 18th Dec 9pm. It`ll be the house amp there again.
I assume it would just be an IR and so would have mic sound in it too.bloodandtears said:gearaddict said:I notice the HB PA speaker style one above (https://harleybenton.com/product/frfr-112a/) has on board cab sims, so presumably can also be fed a speaker sim off signal. Not sure if there's much benefit in that...interesting that they include it though. I'm not sure why the cab providing the cab sim rather than the modeller would provide a more amp-in-the-room experience. I suppose they just tune their IRs to try and replicate that.bloodandtears said:I think the L6 Power Cab was supposed to be fed a "speaker-sim off" signal to allow use of its own cab modelling to give you the "amp in the room" that some folk want.
correct.. I'd assume it won't have the "mic" modelling element thus trying to sound like how the cab in the room would sound??!?!
The value would be that if you were using something that wasn't a modeller - say a Revival Drive - that didn't have speaker simulation you wouldn't need another bit of kit just to load the IR.
Lewy said:I assume it would just be an IR and so would have mic sound in it too.bloodandtears said:gearaddict said:I notice the HB PA speaker style one above (https://harleybenton.com/product/frfr-112a/) has on board cab sims, so presumably can also be fed a speaker sim off signal. Not sure if there's much benefit in that...interesting that they include it though. I'm not sure why the cab providing the cab sim rather than the modeller would provide a more amp-in-the-room experience. I suppose they just tune their IRs to try and replicate that.bloodandtears said:I think the L6 Power Cab was supposed to be fed a "speaker-sim off" signal to allow use of its own cab modelling to give you the "amp in the room" that some folk want.
correct.. I'd assume it won't have the "mic" modelling element thus trying to sound like how the cab in the room would sound??!?!
The value would be that if you were using something that wasn't a modeller - say a Revival Drive - that didn't have speaker simulation you wouldn't need another bit of kit just to load the IR.
yeah I hear ya and you are probably right, likely IRs;
but I feel like there is a possibility its just an EQ or tone filter being applied that doesn't have that element baked in?
Like I mentioned before I’m using a tonex one into the headrush FR08. I don’t know if it’s just the patches I use (and therefore prefer that type of sounds) but they all sound like amp in the room to me.
I no longer actually have an amp in the room to compare it to but that’s what it certainly sounds like to me.
I’m still very much a newbie when it comes to this modelling lark, having previously used headrush MX5 and a line 6 pod go they both Felt very fizzy and remote to me. My tonex One and FRFR sound infinitely better, that being said I’m keen to try a Friedman IR-X Into the FRFR to see if it again feels more real.
I’m interested to see if the two preamp tubes give that immediacy a valve amp does and also to see how good they sound and how much more control I’d get over the EQ.
It seems unbeknownst to me the patches I’ve settled on on my Tonex are mostly BE50 and pink Taco.
I'll have to double check mine then when I have the opportunity to go through the main board as I don't have a mixer sysyem. Is yours a Mk1 or Mk2 and how exactly are you connecting everything?gearaddict said:I just checked and with my 108 the volume controls the output XLR too.Voxman said:I'm puzzled. The FRFR108 (I have two Mk1s) has two combined XLR/quarter inch inputs and an XLR out. The input volumes should have no affect on the XLR out signal and when I tried mine through the main desk I didn't experience this issue?gearaddict said:One thing I think is weird about the Headrush 108 is the pass-through output volume changes as you turn up the main volume on the unit. So if you are using the Headrush as a monitor or backline on stage and using the pass-through to go to FoH, you can't really adjust the volume on the unit without a careful negotiation with the sound guy. I have a couple of similar PA speakers and on those, the pass-through is unaffected by the volume control on the unit.
It’s a Mk1. I just connected the output to another pa speaker with a xlr cable.
I've been using modellers for years, starting with an early POD2 which I used through a Roland KC350 keyboard amp. Moved to a Digitech RP500, then a Fractal AX8, HX Stomp, FM3 and now FM9. When I got the AX8, I bought a Yamaha DXR10 which was well regarded by the modelling crowd. To my ears, I prefer the sound of the FR-10, despite it being a fair bit cheaper. Can't put my finger on why but I'm well out of the honeymoon period so I don't think it's smoke and mirrors. I still have the DXR but always pick the Fender.gearaddict said:Yeah, I get that. I suppose what I'm trying to figure out is if these new guitar cab form factor FRFR speakers are smoke and mirrors or not. I've not had a chance to try one so I'm just going on what others say about them. General consensus seems to be that they sound much more like a 'cab in the room', while still overall sounding like a PA speaker. Which I'm guessing is partly the housing they are in and partly whatever eq tweaks have been introduced by the manufacturers.
FWIW, it seems to sound better when it's flat on the floor or on an amp stand than when on the tilt back. Also, with FRFR solutions for guitar, I prefer 10" speakers to 12" - just seem to sound "right" despite all but one of my regular cabs being fitted with 12" guitar speakers. YMMV
A powered or unpowered PA speaker? And is the volume affected by both of the Headrush volume controls or just one? What should happen is only one of the volumes changes the XLR out volume and the other channel is used for the Headrush itself so it doesn't change the XLR out volume settings.gearaddict said:It’s a Mk1. I just connected the output to another pa speaker with a xlr cable.
I had this issue initially when I used two Headrush, one for audience and one for fold back, connected via XLR until I realised I had to use the other Headrush channel.
It's a powered speaker. I tried both inputs and they seemed to behave the same way.Voxman said:A powered or unpowered PA speaker? And is the volume affected by both of the Headrush volume controls or just one? What should happen is only one of the volumes changes the XLR out volume and the other channel is used for the Headrush itself so it doesn't change the XLR out volume settings.gearaddict said:It’s a Mk1. I just connected the output to another pa speaker with a xlr cable.
I had this issue initially when I used two Headrush, one for audience and one for fold back, connected via XLR until I realised I had to use the other Headrush channel.
Most active speaker manufacturers buy in modules now and install them into their own boxes. Essentially this is what a Tonemaster is .. it's just theres a Fender DSP board in there as well.
I made an active monitor wedge in the same way and posted in on the old forum 18 years ago. Back then the modules tended to be class AD with a linear supply so quite heavy. Now they are all SMPS and class D
Class D powered by SMPS does always sound quieter into a given load to my ears then a linear amp and certainly quieter than a valve amp. I'm not 100 % sure why
Icepower do some 700 and 1kW modules which are more money but could get as loud as a Twin and more