“Undertaking”
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Regarding roundabouts, Also see: "you should only join if you won't be blocking any exits or entrances for other road users."
Going back to the original post, the cars in the nearside lane (Lane 1) that were going faster that the traffic in the other lanes were in the lane that was designated by the overhead signs as the dedicated feeder lane to the off-ramp. If it wasn't already the case, the lines on the right-hand side of that lane would very soon get closer together and turn into closely spaced dashes, at which point you are in that feeder lane. Drivers in the feeder lane should have a reasonable expectation that vehicles in the adjacent lane to the right may still rightfully indicate left and cross into that lane, and therefore be prepared for that possibility. If somebody is going excessively fast in that feeder lane and a car indicating and trying to cross into that lane ends up in a collision with that car, then there is still a possibility that the drivers of both cars could be charged with careless driving. "Undertaking" would not be the charge. It would be failing to be cognisant of surrounding traffic conditions and driving in a suitable manner (ie. Section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and superseded without changes of definition to a more recent statute: "driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or place")
One of the issues with feeder lanes and off-ramps is that people quite often do not know how to read overhead gantry signs. If the sign for a particular destination completely covers the entire width of the nearside lane, then that lane is going to become a dedicated feeder lane to an off-ramp, whereas if it only partly covers the width of the lane then that lane will continue but there will be a marked off-ramp from it. A lot of people also fail to recognise the significance of the three countdown marker signs on the approach to an exit that are spaced 100 metres apart and go from three diagonal lines to two then to one.
"Undertaking", to most people with an understanding of the rules of the road and a modicum of common sense, is passing traffic on the nearside with the intention of gaining distance and then cutting back in to rejoin traffic in the next lane to the offside again. It is not the act of going faster in the nearside lane when it is perfectly legal and acceptable to do so, as with the feeder lane scenario. Undertaking of itself is not unlawful, however all you have to do is cause another driver to brake or take evasive action to avoid a collision as you do so or cut back in, and you have driven carelessly and inconsiderately and could very easily be charged accordingly. For a motorway or other fast moving multi-lane road The Highway Code (Rule 268) makes it clear that you should only be going faster than and passing cars on their nearside when traffic is congested and, by implication, moving more slowly than would normally be the case on a motorway, not going at 70 past cars going at 60 so as to get ahead of them.
Cases such as ,say, M25 junction with the M3 where there are 2 feeder lanes for the M3 but these trail back a mile or so before the junction. The M25 past the junction is usually torn up so there almost always queues backing up some distance before the M3 slip road. People then use the M3 slips as a way to bypass the queue in the 3 lanes of the M25. Best bit is where a truck decides to use the slip lanes up to about 50 yards before the turnoff then stops trying to get back into the M25 lanes. Blocks the M3 access and adds to the queues on the M25. Come to think of it there are a lot of junctions that are similarly borked. At times you do wonder what the planners were thinking.
They were probably thinking the drivers would have some consideration for other drivers rather than just me, me, me, me, me...
I did a defensive / close protection driving course at MIRA in (of all places) Coventry a few years ago, great stuff - skid pan and all that. The instructers knew their stuff and I asked some of the questions posed in this thread:
- a Dual Carriageway is only a Dual Carriageway if it has a sign that says 'Dual Carriageway' on it. Regardless of central reservations / barriers. There are plenty that don't have these.
-SLOW means someone once went too fast once upon a time, crashed and they decided to paint a sign afterwards. Pretty much all of these type of notifications are put in place AFTER an accident.
- Roundabouts, you give way to whoever is already on it. You must enter and exit a roundabout (signalling your intention each time) so if you get there first it's yours. However, you don't win fights with big vehicles so, regadless of who is in the right, give way to whatever needs you to give way to it, keep distance and make sure you have an escape route planned.
- Undertaking - no such thing. You can pass either side if the road conditions dictate. The trick is to keep space, observe and anticipate, always giving yourself room to manoeuvre. Saying that, I used to drive home on the empty M25 late at night and you often saw coppers hanging in the outside lane doing 50mph, waiting for someone to pass by on the inside to flag them down. Not sure I would be up for arguing the point if it came to it.
These guys were the instructors that the Police go to and their view was that there is a level of instruction they give which may not align with the above rules. When they are driving close protection they keep themselves (and their clients) safe rather than following dsputable rules.
Are you sure? That's not what the Highway Code says.blobb said:- a Dual Carriageway is only a Dual Carriageway if it has a sign that says 'Dual Carriageway' on it. Regardless of central reservations / barriers. There are plenty that don't have these.
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/multi-lane-carriageways.html
correct.Sporky said:Are you sure? That's not what the Highway Code says.blobb said:- a Dual Carriageway is only a Dual Carriageway if it has a sign that says 'Dual Carriageway' on it. Regardless of central reservations / barriers. There are plenty that don't have these.
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/multi-lane-carriageways.html
And SLOW literally means Speed Low Observe Warnings.
I would think a cannibal could pass someone on his inside
@blobb stated he was on a "defensive / close protection driving course". Police traffic officers do an advanced "progressive" driving course intended to allow them to get places a lot faster but in one piece without causing accidents. Normal beat cops in cars do an advanced driving course that aims to teach them much better road awareness to try and stop them from being involved in accidents. A "defensive" or "close protection" course is vastly different from those courses because it teaches you how not get boxed in, how to evade other vehicles pursuing you, and various other driving techniques that don't follow the Highway Code or the Road Traffic Act, so of course the instructors aren't going to give the same answers as a normal driving theory test.
Regardless of this though, a "dual carriageway" comprises a road with 2 lanes in each direction regardless of whether there is a central reservation. The only difference with the way they are regarded is that the national speed limit (for normal cars) on a dual carriageway (almost invariably A category) WITH a centre reservation is 70mph same as , whereas if it doesn't have a central reservation the limit is 60mph - unless of course speed limit signs override this.
They probably have .......in Karachi or DakharVimFuego said:not entirely convinced most of the taxi drivers round my way have ever sat a driving test.S56035 said:Improves with experience? Lorry and Taxi drivers are always the worst drivers around and have more experience than most.Timcito said:I would hate to go through the stress of being retested and risk losing my license. I also think it would be mostly unnecessary. Driving, like most skills, improves with experience, regardless of whether, on the spot, we can identify all traffic signs or road markings and the like.
There appears to be a special London version of the Highway Code that starts:
"Cyclists: the following is entirely optional, especially in Tooley Street where traffic lights may be taken to be a suggestion rather than an instruction."
"Cyclists: the following is entirely optional, especially in Tooley Street where traffic lights may be taken to be a suggestion rather than an instruction."
No. A dual carriageway can have any number of lanes (including one) in either direction, but must have a central divider. Each direction is a carriageway.BillDL said:Regardless of this though, a "dual carriageway" comprises a road with 2 lanes in each direction regardless of whether there is a central reservation.
It's in the Highway code.
I could say the same about many drivers and junctions near me. Specifically one next to a hospital and another at the exit of a motorway junctionscrumhalf said:There appears to be a special London version of the Highway Code that starts:
"Cyclists: the following is entirely optional, especially in Toilet Street where traffic lights may be taken to be a suggestion rather than an instruction."
I'm not sure about your words, so we might mean the same thing anyway...BillDL said:<snip>Regardless of this though, a "dual carriageway" comprises a road with 2 lanes in each direction regardless of whether there is a central reservation. The only difference with the way they are regarded is that the national speed limit (for normal cars) on a dual carriageway (almost invariably A category) WITH a centre reservation is 70mph same as , whereas if it doesn't have a central reservation the limit is 60mph - unless of course speed limit signs override this.
A dual carriageway is, by definition, a road where the traffic going in one direction is separated by a barrier or reservation of some sort from the traffic going in the other direction. It could be concrete, steel or even a strip of grass, but there won't be one contiguous bit of tarmac for both of them. It could be just one lane in each direction. It doesn't have to be two lanes in each direction (that's the bit you wrote that I wasn't sure was what you actually meant).
If you're travelling on a single carriageway road where NSL is 60mph for your vehicle (and it could be a multi-lane road in both directions, just no reservation or barrier) and it turns into a dual carriageway, there (usually) won't be a change of speed limit sign, but you can then go to 70mph if safe. Return to 60mph when it ends. If the single carriageway has a lower speed limit (say, 50mph) and there is no sign at the start of the dual carriageway, then stick to 50mph or risk a tug.
Yes @Sporky and @TheBigDipper are correct. I meant "lanes in each direction" rather than "two lanes in each direction", so it's obviously still possible to have one lane in each direction or 3. When I referred to "central reservation" what I should have qualified was that it is not necessary to have a raised barrier separating them, but it still needs that separation or "reservation" that could easily just comprise a raised verge, level grass, or dipped gravel. You no longer tend to see dual carriageways without a raised barrier because the highways departments embarked on a massive national upgrade years ago to reduce fatal head-on collision accidents from cars veering across the reservations with no barriers, for example the majority of the A9 as it used to be.
I don’t remember much, if any, of the A9 being like that. (Although I may be wrong.) The majority of the many fatal head-on crashes on it were, and still are, caused by reckless overtaking on single-carriageway sections - which is why they’re upgrading as much if it as practical to proper two lanes in each direction dual carriageway. If anything the ‘Dual Carriageway In 1 Mile’ signage helped a fair bit simply by reducing the perceived need for stupid overtaking. It’s still not a road I particularly enjoy driving on though.BillDL said:
You no longer tend to see dual carriageways without a raised barrier because the highways departments embarked on a massive national upgrade years ago to reduce fatal head-on collision accidents from cars veering across the reservations with no barriers, for example the majority of the A9 as it used to be.
Yeah, there were quite a few sections where it was just gravel and grass between each side, then they installed tensioned cables on some parts, but all now have proper barriers as far as I recall. The section up past Auchterader and Gleneagles on the way to the Broxden roundabout at Perth had a lot of reservations without physical barriers before they were upgraded. I also have some more vague memories of the old A77 Ayr Road once being two lanes in each direction for quite a length where all that separated vehicles going opposite directions was a painted "island" or widely spaced double white lines. It was a fast road (60mph) with very frequent head-on smashes. I hated that road.
I get this on an almost daily basis crossing a couple of junctions on my way to the co-op to get some milk or bread. Almost always some aggressive abuse from the driver as well. Last week I was crossing a zebra crossing and a motorist doing 35mph in a 20mph zone just stormed across without looking. When I was 3/4 of the way across another car came from the other direction and didn't stop or slow down, just swerved violently to the other side of the road to get round me. The idiocy and selfishness of entitled drivers is the most depressing thing about living in a city.ewal said:I walked across the entrance to a car park this morning and was nearly run down by an irate driver wound up by the need to buy everything in Tesco for Christmas.
So few people seem to understand that pedestrians have right of way at junctions, car park entrances, etc. I wasn't even waiting to cross the road - I had already stepped on to the road.
hmmmm, not sure about that @sev112, rule 185
Where are you getting that you shouldn't give way to traffic approaching from the right?