Mary Spender loses £12,000 on her recent tour
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9FyZcozdOE
Comments
Yes quite an honest summary of what she got wrong there.. it's interesting.
Like a lot of other solo artists, she concludes a band is just too expensive most of the time for the income she's likely to make.
Like a lot of other solo artists, she concludes a band is just too expensive most of the time for the income she's likely to make.
... and she's promoting a course about how to tour (profitably, I assume) at the end of the video
Got to get that £12k back somehow I guess
Got to get that £12k back somehow I guess
I haven’t watched this yet although I had watched some other “day in the life” videos of American artists going on tour and found it quite interesting. Their daily schedule and expenses were documented very well. I can only assume that’s why YouTube recommended her to me, I genuinely didn’t know she made music. I thought she did gear demo videos. I’ll check it out this evening at some stage although I can’t imagine it covers anything new the other stuff I’ve watched hasn’t already.
Unfortunate surname if you are trying to make money.
I'm not planning on watching the video, I don't know her, but it's sad to hear that any musician fares so badly financially.
Fricking clickbait again. Why would any non-famous musician expect to make money from anything to do with music? Is being a musician associated with anything other than eating baked beans out of a can? What's the big insight, if you book a venue and don't sell enough tickets you'll lose money? I'm sure we'd all love music to be a source of income, but there's a reason that most of us don't. Hopefully the clicks. With 756K subscribers, one would assume that she'll make it up on clicks and 50% OFF MY NEW TOURING COURSE. Her company balance sheet is okay.
I know last time I moaned about the state of the Internet I got flamed because it's not marketing, it's sincere educational content. I'll just leave this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvZYwaQlJsg
I know last time I moaned about the state of the Internet I got flamed because it's not marketing, it's sincere educational content. I'll just leave this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvZYwaQlJsg
I haven't watched terrestrial television for over 20 years, but I digress :)topdog91 said:Fricking clickbait again. Why would any non-famous musician expect to make money from anything to do with music? Is being a musician associated with anything other than eating baked beans out of a can? What's the big insight, if you book a venue and don't sell enough tickets you'll lose money? I'm sure we'd all love music to be a source of income, but there's a reason that most of us don't. Hopefully the clicks. With 756K subscribers, one would assume that she'll make it up on clicks and 50% OFF MY NEW TOURING COURSE. Her company balance sheet is okay.
I know last time I moaned about the state of the Internet I got flamed because it's not marketing, it's sincere educational content. I'll just leave this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvZYwaQlJsg
No, but YouTube and social media are the 2024 equivalent in terms of market share and penetration etc.Vintage65 said:I haven't watched terrestrial television for over 20 years, but I digress :)topdog91 said:Fricking clickbait again. Why would any non-famous musician expect to make money from anything to do with music? Is being a musician associated with anything other than eating baked beans out of a can? What's the big insight, if you book a venue and don't sell enough tickets you'll lose money? I'm sure we'd all love music to be a source of income, but there's a reason that most of us don't. Hopefully the clicks. With 756K subscribers, one would assume that she'll make it up on clicks and 50% OFF MY NEW TOURING COURSE. Her company balance sheet is okay.
I know last time I moaned about the state of the Internet I got flamed because it's not marketing, it's sincere educational content. I'll just leave this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvZYwaQlJsg
Adam Neely did some good videos on the economics of touring.
His band are very good if you like widdley jazz fusion.
I chose to watch the video because I know Mary Spender is very popular on here ;)topdog91 said:No, but YouTube and social media are the 2024 equivalent in terms of market share and penetration etc.Vintage65 said:I haven't watched terrestrial television for over 20 years, but I digress :)topdog91 said:Fricking clickbait again. Why would any non-famous musician expect to make money from anything to do with music? Is being a musician associated with anything other than eating baked beans out of a can? What's the big insight, if you book a venue and don't sell enough tickets you'll lose money? I'm sure we'd all love music to be a source of income, but there's a reason that most of us don't. Hopefully the clicks. With 756K subscribers, one would assume that she'll make it up on clicks and 50% OFF MY NEW TOURING COURSE. Her company balance sheet is okay.
I know last time I moaned about the state of the Internet I got flamed because it's not marketing, it's sincere educational content. I'll just leave this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvZYwaQlJsg
Fair play to her for being so honest about her mistakes, although she doesn't seem to acknowledge all of them (who pays a promoter a fee? Promoters pay the bands...?). Genuinely hilarious that she's now selling a course on how to do it, but it is good to talk about how expensive touring is.
https://www.reddit.com/r/guitarcirclejerk/comments/1hmompl/i_wish_i_could_learn_from_the_pros/
As I recall, Voodoo Six called it a day after touring with Iron Maiden, and making less each than they would in a minimum-wage job.
It astonishes me that any of these people are surprised that making music, and everything that goes with it, makes less money than making videos about making music. It's been that way since Rob Chapman uploaded his first video, it's not like they haven't had time to get used to the idea.
That's why, for me, this kind of video is a bit disingenuous. The video about not making any money on tour will likely make more than enough money to make up for it...which was likely the whole strategy in the first place. If that's the case, then the tour was simply the content for the video, no different to vlogging your way around Japan (for example) and getting a free holiday out of it. Add in the "how to make money from touring" advert, and job done.
However, having scanned through the video, there's one glaring omission: her time planning the tour isn't accounted for. She says that she spent a year planning it...factor that in, even at minimum wage (her time will be worth a lot more than that under normal circumstances), and she lost a hell of a lot more than just £12k.
Ultimately, though, I certainly wouldn't be buying a course on how to tour properly without losing money from somebody who hasn't actually managed to break even on tour yet.
It astonishes me that any of these people are surprised that making music, and everything that goes with it, makes less money than making videos about making music. It's been that way since Rob Chapman uploaded his first video, it's not like they haven't had time to get used to the idea.
That's why, for me, this kind of video is a bit disingenuous. The video about not making any money on tour will likely make more than enough money to make up for it...which was likely the whole strategy in the first place. If that's the case, then the tour was simply the content for the video, no different to vlogging your way around Japan (for example) and getting a free holiday out of it. Add in the "how to make money from touring" advert, and job done.
However, having scanned through the video, there's one glaring omission: her time planning the tour isn't accounted for. She says that she spent a year planning it...factor that in, even at minimum wage (her time will be worth a lot more than that under normal circumstances), and she lost a hell of a lot more than just £12k.
Ultimately, though, I certainly wouldn't be buying a course on how to tour properly without losing money from somebody who hasn't actually managed to break even on tour yet.
Also having a good album to promote will garner interest, and usually gets you onto one of the Glastonbury stages as well, so it pays to have a good product!AntonHunter said:Fair play to her for being so honest about her mistakes, although she doesn't seem to acknowledge all of them (who pays a promoter a fee? Promoters pay the bands...?). Genuinely hilarious that she's now selling a course on how to do it, but it is good to talk about how expensive touring is.
I watched the first minute, and the last 4-5 mins.
I had a few paragraphs typed out of my thoughts (more so as the owner of a business) but I’ve deleted it all as I couldn’t find a way to be polite about it.
In short, 1200 ticket sales to take a team on the road for 13 nights? Wow.
In short, 1200 ticket sales to take a team on the road for 13 nights? Wow.
Did I hear that right? She ‘hired’ each venue?
I may have this wrong but don’t ’promoters’ book a band for the venue? The band get a flat fee and the promotors take the risk and reward on sales in each venue?
So following her model, my band books the RAH but we might stand to make a loss? Sorry but if I am right, her DIY business model over reached her ability to sell tickets for the places she booked.
So following her model, my band books the RAH but we might stand to make a loss? Sorry but if I am right, her DIY business model over reached her ability to sell tickets for the places she booked.
Vintage65 7said:Also having a good album to promote will garner interest, and usually gets you onto one of the Glastonbury stages as well, so it pays to have a good product!AntonHunter said:Fair play to her for being so honest about her mistakes, although she doesn't seem to acknowledge all of them (who pays a promoter a fee? Promoters pay the bands...?). Genuinely hilarious that she's now selling a course on how to do it, but it is good to talk about how expensive touring is.
Well, quite, but there's a lot of dross out there that manages to break even as well...
It’s a massive shame that an artist isn’t able to take a backing band on a diy tour & make money. I’m not sure they ever could, though. Paying them £200 a day before expenses is going to put a dent into any tour budget.
I feel blessed that I grew up in the punk scene, where making money was something you did by accident. You did a few weeks in the studio, toured for a few weeks, and worked the rest of the year to pay your rent. Rinse & repeat. Touring & merch generally covered equipment and van upkeep. Once we even got on a tour that gave us 2 hotel rooms a night which was insane luxury to not be seeping on a living room floor with 3 other bands.
I feel blessed that I grew up in the punk scene, where making money was something you did by accident. You did a few weeks in the studio, toured for a few weeks, and worked the rest of the year to pay your rent. Rinse & repeat. Touring & merch generally covered equipment and van upkeep. Once we even got on a tour that gave us 2 hotel rooms a night which was insane luxury to not be seeping on a living room floor with 3 other bands.
One thing I’ll never miss from those days is vegan chilli. Forever grateful to get fed, but 3 weeks of the promoter making chilli every night through Europe can sometimes get a little bit disheartening. Unlimited beer riders in Germany more than made up for it though.
I had to google her. Turns out she's some kind of Rick Beato in its infancy, but at least she had the opportunity to learn from his (and others') mistakes.
Well, I can sort of understand it - generally speaking, promoters take the vast majority of the money and bands make fuck-all. Yes, promoters take all the risk, but they have lots of sneaky ways to avoid losing money...Mary Spender didn't do any of those things, because a) it's fucking people over, and b) it would go over very badly as soon as it got out.rsvmark said:Did I hear that right? She ‘hired’ each venue?I may have this wrong but don’t ’promoters’ book a band for the venue? The band get a flat fee and the promotors take the risk and reward on sales in each venue?
So following her model, my band books the RAH but we might stand to make a loss? Sorry but if I am right, her DIY business model over reached her ability to sell tickets for the places she booked.
The trouble is, without doing that kind of thing - pay-to-play etc - there actually isn't a practical way to make money. That's the dirty little secret nobody wants to admit.
Add to that the whole "overestimating your own reach" thing, and it's not a massive shock. Just look at the numbers - 700k+ subscribers, only 1200 tickets sold. That's the reality of the Internet; online popularity just doesn't translate all that well into the real world.
It works all the way down to the "enthusiastic amateur" level - one of my bands had around 3k followers, but we couldn't even persuade 50 people to show up to a gig in our home town on a good day. We weren't shit, we were exactly the kind of music they all liked...we had more people than that in our town who really, really liked our music. They just couldn't be arsed to show up.
For most people, unless it's something they can stick on Instagram to make people jealous, music is just something that happens in the background while something more interesting is going on.
I know it’s not much in the grand scheme of things to compare.. but we are exactly the same.digitalscream said.
Add to that the whole "overestimating your own reach" thing, and it's not a massive shock. Just look at the numbers - 700k+ subscribers, only 1200 tickets sold. That's the reality of the Internet; online popularity just doesn't translate all that well into the real world.
10,708 instagram followers and sometimes we struggle to sell the most popular body types and finishes because likes and follows don’t equal sales or profit.
It can be very expensive to keep a band on the road but some of the money saving tricks we have used are so obvious
Book hotel rooms well in advance and also use AirBnb ... it's cheaper.
Take as much stuff as you can from the breakfast bar ... fill your flask with coffee, take a lot of fruit and yogurts
Don't eat in service stations, that's just nuts ... eat the free shit in the day and use spoons in the evening. Meal and a beer £10 per head
Check the venues own tech spec online, they generally list the PA, the monitors and desk etc ... if nothings listed ring them. Don't assume venues have PA's as often they are hired in and you want to avoid that cost or hire in the PA yourself to keep the coat down. Her tour manager must have known this otherwise he's literally the greenest guy in the job.
Facebook boosts were never going to work for her. They can work for a tribute as that has a broader appeal. But don't blow more than £200 or so on it. A decent promotions company like Glasswerk are worth paying for though.
There's loads of other stuff but it all comes down to the fact she couldn't sell the tickets and that's the crux. Even if you get shafted by a local authority venue like Gloucester guild hall to the tune of 2.4K for the space, the PA, the lighting, the bouncers etc selling enough tickets will still keep you in profit.
It's just trying to run before you can walk. Everyone knows you can't take a 4 piece band on the road in the UK unless you can sell 300 to 500 tickets every venue or you can charge a higher ticket price.
But she got a video from it, she can write off a bit of tax. And she got the experience from performing which is invaluable.
Book hotel rooms well in advance and also use AirBnb ... it's cheaper.
Take as much stuff as you can from the breakfast bar ... fill your flask with coffee, take a lot of fruit and yogurts
Don't eat in service stations, that's just nuts ... eat the free shit in the day and use spoons in the evening. Meal and a beer £10 per head
Check the venues own tech spec online, they generally list the PA, the monitors and desk etc ... if nothings listed ring them. Don't assume venues have PA's as often they are hired in and you want to avoid that cost or hire in the PA yourself to keep the coat down. Her tour manager must have known this otherwise he's literally the greenest guy in the job.
Facebook boosts were never going to work for her. They can work for a tribute as that has a broader appeal. But don't blow more than £200 or so on it. A decent promotions company like Glasswerk are worth paying for though.
There's loads of other stuff but it all comes down to the fact she couldn't sell the tickets and that's the crux. Even if you get shafted by a local authority venue like Gloucester guild hall to the tune of 2.4K for the space, the PA, the lighting, the bouncers etc selling enough tickets will still keep you in profit.
It's just trying to run before you can walk. Everyone knows you can't take a 4 piece band on the road in the UK unless you can sell 300 to 500 tickets every venue or you can charge a higher ticket price.
But she got a video from it, she can write off a bit of tax. And she got the experience from performing which is invaluable.
The problem is that though she is a very capable presenter and reviewer and a decent singer her original material is not that interesting.
I know who she is but if she was playing in my town I wouldn't go and see her whereas I would go and see Adam Neely, Frogleap, Benn Jordan, or Martin Miller.
GoldenEraGuitars said:I know it’s not much in the grand scheme of things to compare.. but we are exactly the same.digitalscream said.
Add to that the whole "overestimating your own reach" thing, and it's not a massive shock. Just look at the numbers - 700k+ subscribers, only 1200 tickets sold. That's the reality of the Internet; online popularity just doesn't translate all that well into the real world.10,708 instagram followers and sometimes we struggle to sell the most popular body types and finishes because likes and follows don’t equal sales or profit.
These are great points. A mate of mine who toured a lot in the past has always said that the only way to build a live audience is by touring... lots. It presents an odd dilemma for these YouTube stars, they're famous for music, but often without having actually played live much... so now in Spender's case, she's probably too famous to be playing thr toilet circuit (would it damage her brand maybe?), but not famous enough with the actual gig-going public to sell out the bigger venues.
On a broader note, wider touring of the more affordable kind is definitely suffering from the pressures on grassroots music venues, so we should be bigging up https://www.musicvenuetrust.com/ at any opportunity. [/steps off soapbox]
Generally if the venue thinks the tickets will sell then a split is agreed. 65% to the band and the rest to the venue for example. If the venue isn't sure the band will sell enough tickets then they will offer to hire you the venue. That way regardless of what happens they can still pay the door staff, the bar staff, the PA and lighting engineers etc. It cost a venue a lot of money in staff just to open the doors.rsvmark said:Did I hear that right? She ‘hired’ each venue?I may have this wrong but don’t ’promoters’ book a band for the venue? The band get a flat fee and the promotors take the risk and reward on sales in each venue?
So following her model, my band books the RAH but we might stand to make a loss? Sorry but if I am right, her DIY business model over reached her ability to sell tickets for the places she booked.
The split varies ... if the venue is sure you can sell a lot of tickets at a good price they they might be happy with an 80 / 20 split in your favour. If they aren't sure then they will want a bigger split to them from the start as 40% of 100 x £10 tickets is more than 20% of 180 x £10 tickets
That's my experience with single turn tributes, covers and originals bands at these kinds of venues. For multiband bashes it's different as some bands will sell more tickets than others... so each band is on a fee but the promotor could still be on an agreed split or paying for the hire of the venue.
She does make good money from it - look at her Patreon subscribers alone - her "business" turns over a good £100k just from that and she has two employees on the books she admits to in her video - they will cost about 30k each even if both are on minimum wage (true cost-of-employment, minimum wage * 1.3 ish).topdog91 said:Fricking clickbait again. Why would any non-famous musician expect to make money from anything to do with music?
That is one of the problems facing modern music - a lot of people don't really go to gigs as they are fans of music. They go so they can get a photo there on instagram, or to write a review on blogs which purport to be about music but are actually about them, or to fulfil some other social media need.digitalscream said:It works all the way down to the "enthusiastic amateur" level - one of my bands had around 3k followers, but we couldn't even persuade 50 people to show up to a gig in our home town on a good day. We weren't shit, we were exactly the kind of music they all liked...we had more people than that in our town who really, really liked our music. They just couldn't be arsed to show up.
For most people, unless it's something they can stick on Instagram to make people jealous, music is just something that happens in the background while something more interesting is going on.
Ironically a lot of younger people are more into music than ever before, but they have already been hooked into the hideously expensive vinyl revival, so getting them to gigs as well, with their limited income, is even harder than ever as the gigs get more and more expensive.
The vinyl thing is the main merch earn at gigs now for a lot of small acts. I will spend the £16 or whatever to help them out but also because it's a nice memory of the gig. I know it's what I call pointless vinyl as it's tracked and mastered digital but I still buy it as that one purchase is worth thousands of streams to the band revenue wise.
It is kinda sad though. When I was coming up you could hire a venue on a Thursday night and get 200 or so punters in watching your originals band supported by a couple of other bands. The covers band scene is still solid and the tribute but it's not the same thing.
It is kinda sad though. When I was coming up you could hire a venue on a Thursday night and get 200 or so punters in watching your originals band supported by a couple of other bands. The covers band scene is still solid and the tribute but it's not the same thing.
She really is the gift that keeps on giving. YouTube is great for a lot of things, but not this stuff.
^ It's this, isn't it? With over three quarters of a million subs, this should turn out quite nicely B)Danny1969 said:...
But she got a video from it...
I think the other thing to get from Mary is she genuinely seems a nice girl, humbled by her success who has worked very hard for it in a competitive and difficult market.
Increasingly common these days and for me it's a bluddy good thing. You get incredible stories of musicians like Raye, or genuinely nice seeming pop stars like Becky Hill who come across overwhelmingly as decent people who achieve because of talent and hard work.
I know people love the whole rock god thing - not sure why (Hendrix took so many drugs... how cool is he... and also very fucking dead at 27) and I guess that sold a lot of records at one point - but I for one don't miss the idea of some drummer earning more than the GDP of some small countries and being lauded as a "legend" while sounding like every other coke-addled loon.
Increasingly common these days and for me it's a bluddy good thing. You get incredible stories of musicians like Raye, or genuinely nice seeming pop stars like Becky Hill who come across overwhelmingly as decent people who achieve because of talent and hard work.
I know people love the whole rock god thing - not sure why (Hendrix took so many drugs... how cool is he... and also very fucking dead at 27) and I guess that sold a lot of records at one point - but I for one don't miss the idea of some drummer earning more than the GDP of some small countries and being lauded as a "legend" while sounding like every other coke-addled loon.