Renamed: Tele kit build
Comments
Look on Ebay for second hand Fender Mexican Tele pickups - they go very cheaply, in fact you can barely give them away… not because they’re no good, but because a lot of people take them out to replace with something more expensive and there’s no demand for them otherwise. Even the cheaper type with ceramic magnets on the bottom are actually OK, although the reissue type with alnico rod magnets are better. I’d be amazed if you have to pay more than £40 for a pair.JRgtar said:
I’ve seen a wired loom and pickups for £180 from Alegree, but any other budget recommendations for doing that? I play blues, but really just after a classic tele sound at low cost.
The switch, pots and jack make no difference to the tone really - pots maybe a tiny bit, but only slight, and possibly debatable.
No. It makes a difference to the feel when bending notes, but not noticeably to the sound.JRgtar said:
Also, is it worth me trying to convert from a top loader to a through-body style? Will I hear a great difference?
Drilling the body for through stringing is much trickier than it looks, even with a proper drill press - the drill bit will wander slightly in the wood, and the ferrules may conflict with each other on the back. (Or at best just look obviously out of position.)
Vintage or modern type?JRgtar said:
Finally, good value tuner recommendations?!
Either way the answer is probably Wilkinson. Gotoh are good too, but a bit more expensive.
JRgtar said:
I appreciate this might be at the lower end of skill levels for this board, but hoping you can advise nevertheless.
Please don't ever put yourself down like that. Some people know loads about the technical side of guitar specifications and about building and modding them, but the vast majority of players have never set up their own guitar let alone changed electrical parts. Everybody that is quite knowledeable about this kind of thing had to learn from scratch, and they aren't going to turn up their nose or scoff at the apparent simplicity (to them) of questions like yours.
May I ask where you bought the kit, perhaps with a web link to it so we can see the components supplied. That would help us to assess what kind of quality the supplied pickups and electrics are likely to be so that we can suggest "better" pickups without breaking the bank. ICBM's suggestion of 2nd-hand Mexican Tele pickups is a good one that you would rarely go wrong with, but if you would prefer good affordable new ones there are some brands that are very good for the money.
I would normally suggest that before people run out and buy "better" pickups for the kit guitar they have just built or a new assembled guitar they have bought, they first experiment with the height of the pickups. Too close to the strings and it can muffle and damp them, and too far away can make them sound weak. Even a cheap pickup can sound OK or even good if you get the height just right. Some kits come with crap strings while others come with branded or unbranded good ones, and rubbishy strings can make a guitar sound worse than it should. Obviously testing out the pickups that came with the kit would mean assembling and stringing it, but if you did then decide they weren't good a pickup swap on a Tele is usually very easy and can sometimes be done by just slackening the strings until they are very loose, but otherwise it would just cost you another set of strings.
How good are you at soldering? Did the kit come with quick connectors for the electrical loom to save you from doing any soldering or, if you haven't already done so, will you have to solder all the connections yourself?
Do you or your Father have a simple electrical multimeter that can be set to measure DC Resistance in kilo ohms (kΩ)? Although the DC Resistance isn't a definite way of evaluating pickups for their "strength" of output, it would probably give you a very rough idea of whether the supplied pickups are particularly "weedy" compared with fairly standard Tele pickups. You just need to touch each probe to the bare wire end of each of the pickup wires.
The only dumb question is an unasked question.BillDL said:JRgtar said:I appreciate this might be at the lower end of skill levels for this board, but hoping you can advise nevertheless.Please don't ever put yourself down like that. Some people know loads about the technical side of guitar specifications and about building and modding them but the vast majority of players have never set up their own guitar let alone changed electrical parts. Everybody that is quite knowledgeable about this kind of thing had to learn from scratch and they aren't going to turn up their nose or scoff at the apparent simplicity (to them) of questions like yours.
Despite appearances to the contrary, I do not answer questions to show off. I do it because thinking about guitar problems helps to exercise my few remaining brain cells.
Some of my replies are founded on past experience of similar repairs. Others are arrived at from first principles.
One of the disadvantages of experienced based advice is that it is possible to have seen too many variants of the same guitar design. For example, the pickup selector options on a PRS Custom have changed several times during the history of the model. It is necessary to ask with which era the control circuit complies.
One of the disadvantages of experienced based advice is that it is possible to have seen too many variants of the same guitar design. For example, the pickup selector options on a PRS Custom have changed several times during the history of the model. It is necessary to ask with which era the control circuit complies.
A customer of mine who is in a "household name" band plays Mexican Telecasters with both types of pickup. He does okay.ICBM said:Look on Ebay for second hand Fender Mexican Tele pickups - they go very cheaply, in fact you can barely give them away… not because they’re no good, but because a lot of people take them out to replace with something more expensive and there’s no demand for them otherwise. Even the cheaper type with ceramic magnets on the bottom are actually OK, although the reissue type with alnico rod magnets are better. I’d be amazed if you have to pay more than £40 for a pair.JRgtar said:
I’ve seen a wired loom and pickups for £180 from Alegree, but any other budget recommendations for doing that? I play blues, but really just after a classic tele sound at low cost.
Dom Estos?
In the "budget but very good" category I've had plenty of success with 'Alegree's budget stuff ( he also makes some rather excellent higher end pickups too ) and Tonerider pickups.
Thanks all, a lot to read and digest here, but some really useful thoughts. I will get back to all, but a few quick answers:
- It’s a Harley Benton tele kit.
- I’ve no soldering experience, but am keen to learn.
- @ICBM thanks for the top loader conversion opinion, really useful (I was thinking it looked easy, but you’ve set me straight).
- @BillDL useful pick-up thoughts, thanks. I guess I have a tele sound in mind, but you’re right: strings and general set-up not helping here.
I’ll feedback more on this project, and undoubtedly have more questions, many thanks!
- It’s a Harley Benton tele kit.
- I’ve no soldering experience, but am keen to learn.
- @ICBM thanks for the top loader conversion opinion, really useful (I was thinking it looked easy, but you’ve set me straight).
- @BillDL useful pick-up thoughts, thanks. I guess I have a tele sound in mind, but you’re right: strings and general set-up not helping here.
I’ll feedback more on this project, and undoubtedly have more questions, many thanks!
Some of the advice posted so far - including mine - has been offered without detailed knowledge of the guitar kit under discussion.
It would help either to be told what brand the kit is or to see photographs of the relevant parts. e.g. The bridge - is it stamped like a vintage Fender or is it a modern, machine from solid, affair? It would also help to be shown either the machineheads or the holes drilled through the headstock to receive them.
Regarding the "pretty feeble" pickup output, the traditional single coil neck/Rhythm position pickup is certainly no fire-breathing monster. On the other hand, a good one, set up properly, can sound huge. (A professional quality amplifier helps.)
If the kit guitar has a larger than traditionally-sized neck pickup cavity, you could elect to install a more powerful unit. Strat, P90, Firebird and others are all worth considering. The downside is that your pickguard would need modifying to accept such a pickup.
If the kit guitar has a larger than traditionally-sized neck pickup cavity, you could elect to install a more powerful unit. Strat, P90, Firebird and others are all worth considering. The downside is that your pickguard would need modifying to accept such a pickup.
Thanks for the answers to the questions @JRgtar. I still have the wiring harness and pickups that came with a Tele kit from another manufacturer. Somebody I know had bought the kit, screwed it together, and then abandoned the job. I finished the build for him but transplanted new electrics into it because I wanted to and had the parts rather than actually needing to. I would hazard a guess that the pickups and wiring harness on that other kit were very likely to have been made in the same factory as those used in the Harley Benton kit, or will be the same comparative quality. The wiring loom comprises quick connect wiring and the pickups are very generic ones with bar magnets rather than magnets as polepieces, and in general you will get a better sound overall by upgrading them, but you wouldn't have to spend a lot to get a noticeable improvement. The sound of pickups is obviously subjective, and I have a couple of guitars with very similar generic budget pickups that sound great.
If you know somebody that's handy with a soldering iron you could snip off a section of wire with the quick connectors from the supplied pickups and have them solder that short section to the wires of replacement pickups so you can still use the quick connectors and save you from soldering the wires tof the new pickups to the switch.
One thing. Have you applied a finish yet? I notice that the wood has been given a coat of sanding sealer ready for spray finishing. If you are going to dye or try and oil finish it, the sanding sealer coat would have to be sanded off completely back to wood or the finish will look patchy where the dye or oil can't soak in through the sealer layer.
https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_eguitar_kit_tstyle.htm
Body: Rengas (routed for single coil Tele pickups only)
Neck: C profile, Maple with unshaped paddle headstock, 2-way (double action) truss rod.
Fretboard: Amaranth, 22 frets, 305mm (12") radius, 648mm (25.5") scale, 42mm nut.
Body: Rengas (routed for single coil Tele pickups only)
Neck: C profile, Maple with unshaped paddle headstock, 2-way (double action) truss rod.
Fretboard: Amaranth, 22 frets, 305mm (12") radius, 648mm (25.5") scale, 42mm nut.
Bridge: Traditional style top-loading 3-barrel non-compensated saddles.
Electrics: Quick connect wiring harness, printed circuit switch, mini pots with push-on metal knobs (may be the thin round shaft type that's more or less one unit once fitted), budget bar magnet pickups, pickguard drilled for neck pickup mounting with screws and springs. Side mounted jack on metal plate. Body pre-drilled for the jack plate.
How did you find the build? I’ve got the Thinline version on order, but they keep pushing back the delivery date
Hi,
I’ve renamed this thread to encompass the entirety of my tele kit build. On the electronics front, I’m really grateful to the kindness of @BillDL he went above and beyond. Despite being a basic kit, this build has some sentimental value to me given I started it with my Dad, who - sadly - died recently: a keen woodworker, he’d have enjoyed the next part of the build.
I’m working on the body finishing next and would welcome any opinions on my proposed process before I get started. My aim is for a transparent, glossy wood finish, but with some tinting to the wood (to give a richer colour). I’m aware the body isn’t necessarily beautiful grain, but am ok with this. It’d a Harley Benton telecaster kit (rengas timber).
First
Sand guitar body from 80 grit. Purpose is to remove primer that was on body. Add filler to any dings on guitar body.
Q: Some websites mention using dampness and soldering irons to extract dings. Is there any disadvantage to just using filler?
Second
At 320 grit, use Use grain filler on all body areas.
Q: What colour filler? Aesthetic/interesting grain is minimal. Is it necessary on the wood I have? I.e. I can’t tell if it's open or closed pore wood.
Third
At 600 grit, wpe body with a damp cloth and allow to dry. Re-sand with 600 grit. Apply first coat of Osmo Polyx (https://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/product/osmo-colour-foundation) I’m using a tinted finish to avoid an extra phase of staining the wood, in addition to the final finish. Wipe off any excess and then allow to dry (8-10hrs). Lightly sand with 800 grit. Brush and wipe off any dust. Apply second coat of Osmo Polyx. Allow to dry.
Q: How do I get a glossy finish - apply a wax on top? The Osmo Polyx tinted is only available in satin.
Thoughts on above very welcome! It’s a process partly lifted from a recent magazine. Finding wood finishing videos very addictive.
Thank you
My sincerest condolences JRgtar.
I'm not experiences with Osmo Polyx so that's best left to those that are. I think @WezV has a lot of experience using it. Just as a reference, here's photos of the body from the Thomann website. The body is said to be of Rengas wood (sometimes referred to as "Borneo Rosewood"). The impression I get is that it will be somewhere between Sapele and Alder in terms of hardness and grain structure, but I've never knowingly worked on a guitar body of this wood. Of course JRgtar's body may be of a different shade and the joints may be more or less apparent than in their photos. Good luck with this part JRgtar.
Hi @JRgtar. I did a search for Osmo Polyx and went through a number of older threads that discussed using it.
That last one attracted my attention because @Andyjr1515 mentioned using a GLOSS variant of the Osmo. He referred to two of the satin versions as "3032 and the thinner 1101" and a "3044 RAW satin", but then went on to mention "their 3011 Gloss version". That MIGHT be an answer to your question about whether the satin Osmo Polyx can be buffed to a gloss finish, but I presume that a compatible tint would need to be added.
I've had a tin of one of them, but haven't got much experience using it as I got it just before I had a break from building, and it had solidified by the time I came to use it again.
I did notice some tins in Wickes last time I was there
I did notice some tins in Wickes last time I was there
Sorry for your loss my friend.JRgtar said:Despite being a basic kit, this build has some sentimental value to me given I started it with my Dad, who - sadly - died recently: a keen woodworker, he’d have enjoyed the next part of the build.
I love the Osmo Polyx satins but, to be honest, don't rate the gloss ones for guitars. Nothing against the product - it's designed for wooden flooring. I find the gloss is very much an 'acrylic gloss' and there are much better glossy glosses around
Thanks for all of the above comments, both kind and very helpful. I should possibly have done more Google searching before, apologies, but all the above is helpful in learning about this.
Hope it’s ok to post a link from another forum, but I found a very useful thread here: https://guitarmaking.co.uk/community/finishing/osmo-finish-tips/
So, I think I’ll go down the Osmo satin tinted route and then wax the result: this is the process followed by both the magazine I read and the link. Grain filler doesn’t appear to be needed with a poly finish. I’m ordering a few samples first to test out colour options.
Further thoughts always welcome, but I’ll post some photos as I progress (probably slowly owing to work, family etc!).
Hope it’s ok to post a link from another forum, but I found a very useful thread here: https://guitarmaking.co.uk/community/finishing/osmo-finish-tips/
So, I think I’ll go down the Osmo satin tinted route and then wax the result: this is the process followed by both the magazine I read and the link. Grain filler doesn’t appear to be needed with a poly finish. I’m ordering a few samples first to test out colour options.
Further thoughts always welcome, but I’ll post some photos as I progress (probably slowly owing to work, family etc!).
Very sorry for your loss.
"I appreciate this might be at the lower end of skill levels for this board, but hoping you can advise nevertheless."
That's not how it works. You're building a guitar. You have a question. Ask :)
"Some websites mention using dampness and soldering irons to extract dings. Is there any disadvantage to just using filler?"
If the ding will come out with heat/steam then you don't have to start messing about with filler, and it keeps the option of a natural finish open. A damp cotton tee-shirt and a clothes iron is all you need. About 10 seconds of hissy, steamy action over each ding will bring it up if it's going to move. If the ding won't come out, then you're no worse off. If it does (and they often do) then you've saved yourself a job.
I would urge you to try your finish on a piece of scrap first. I don't get on with Osmo finishes - I think they're slow to build, and don't really seal the wood unless you put on dozens of coats. I'll freely admit that this may be something I'm doing wrong. FWIW I like Tru-OIl for necks. It's probably heresy, but something like Ronseal 'Diamond Hard' varnish works on a soft-ish body, but lacks a certain mojo.
The need for grain filler depends on how open-grained the wood is, and on your expectations of a finish. Open grain + desire for a glassy finish = grain filler. Above all, experiment until you're happy with your chosen process
Hi,
The body finishing is going well, applying coats of Osmo Polyx and pretty pleased with results.
I’m now turning my attention to the neck. Unfortunately, there’s a couple of small scratches (see: https://flic.kr/p/2qrzbwx). Any advice on how to fill these appreciated. I’ve read that nail varnish can work, but then I’ll need to sand and level it - which would tten probably mean refinishing the neck. I’m undecided if I want to do this (neck feels great, but looks a bit pale). Any cleaner solutions I should consider?
The body finishing is going well, applying coats of Osmo Polyx and pretty pleased with results.
I’m now turning my attention to the neck. Unfortunately, there’s a couple of small scratches (see: https://flic.kr/p/2qrzbwx). Any advice on how to fill these appreciated. I’ve read that nail varnish can work, but then I’ll need to sand and level it - which would tten probably mean refinishing the neck. I’m undecided if I want to do this (neck feels great, but looks a bit pale). Any cleaner solutions I should consider?
Thanks
You could try the steam method on the dents. If they don’t come out completely then a gentle sanding along the neck might help.
As regards colour, you don’t know what the wood has previously been treated with, nor whether it would take stain evenly. So don’t try tinting the neck wood directly. Instead you could try tinting some Osmo with a few drops of spirit based stain, then test it on a spare piece of wood.
As regards colour, you don’t know what the wood has previously been treated with, nor whether it would take stain evenly. So don’t try tinting the neck wood directly. Instead you could try tinting some Osmo with a few drops of spirit based stain, then test it on a spare piece of wood.
A different approach is to use @WezV’s “slurry” method of applying Osmo. This uses very fine OOOO grade wire wool. It leaves behind iron particles which emphasise the wood grain.
Alternatively you could use Tru-Oil, which is a tinted lacquer sold for gun stocks. Personally I prefer the feel of Osmo on a neck.
They look like indentations rather than scratches and may well steam out.
My method is wetsanding with Danish or tru-oil. Definitely not using wire wool for this stage and I find Osmo a bit thick for this method.Roland said:A different approach is to use @WezV’s “slurry” method of applying Osmo. This uses very fine OOOO grade wire wool. It leaves behind iron particles which emphasise the wood grain.
I do use 0000 Liberon wire wool for final wax stages after oil.
This would be my method for harder woods such as the maple neck for a soft sheen that feels good. I wouldn't do it on anything too soft or porous until a thicker level of oil has already been built up, but I don't normally aim for too glossy with oil finishes. It can be done, just not my thing
[EDIT - Whoops, sorry guys. I hadn't seen that there was a 2nd page and thought I was posting after the last author comment on Page 1]
You could try and steam them out. If you use a very damp piece of cloth folded over and placed on the dents the position of them would allow you to use a clothes iron on top of the damp cloth. Keep the cloth dampened, try to use the point of the iron localised on the dented area, lift the cloth and check frequently, and don't leave the iron in contact for long enough to scorch the wood. The steam going into the wood should expand the fibres again and raise the floor of the dent. With luck it will bring the wood right back up to what it was before the The moisture will also raise the grain of the surrounding wood, so you will need to fine sand the area again.
I've used Danish Oil for necks and have been very pleased with the look and feel. It will darken maple slightly with each subsequent application, but on very hard wood like maple on a Fender style neck where there are very dense and less dense areas and also end grain around the neck to headstock transition and the edges of the headstock you can get a bit of variation in the shading depending on how much of the oil can soak into the grain. The idea with Danish Oil is that you wipe it on sparingly, leave it for an hour or two, and then rub off surplus. After a few coats and a longer drying time you buff it to a satin feel.
There are other oils like Tung Oil that are commonly used on guitars, but my exposure has been restricted to Danish Oil and Boiled Linseed Oil.
SameBillDL said:[EDIT - Whoops, sorry guys. I hadn't seen that there was a 2nd page and though I was posting after the last author comment on Page 1]
If you want to send me your control plate with the Pot's, the and jack socket, I'd be happy to put it together and solder it up and put some quick connectors on for you. would take half an hour, I've some 0,022uf caps, so dint worry about one of those.
nero1701 said:If you want to send me your control plate with the Pot's, the and jack socket, I'd be happy to put it together and solder it up and put some quick connectors on for you. would take half an hour, I've some 0,022uf caps, so dint worry about one of those.
Already done. Great minds think alike :)
JRgtar now has a pair of Alegree Old Timer "Hybrid 5 & 2" pickups with quick connectors soldered to the wires, and has a nice thick control plate with quick connector leads soldered to a better quality switch, good quality 250K pots, 0.047uF orange drop capacitor, treble bypass filter, and an electrosocket jack mounting plate.
@nero1701 that is an incredibly kind offer, thank you, but @BillDL beat you to it. Friendly place this forum.
I’ll give the damp cloth and iron method a go on the neck, thanks, it did work well on the body. I am now convinced that sanding down and then oiling the neck is the way to go. I’ll report back!
I’ll give the damp cloth and iron method a go on the neck, thanks, it did work well on the body. I am now convinced that sanding down and then oiling the neck is the way to go. I’ll report back!
@BillDL Nice one mateBillDL said:nero1701 said:If you want to send me your control plate with the Pot's, the and jack socket, I'd be happy to put it together and solder it up and put some quick connectors on for you. would take half an hour, I've some 0,022uf caps, so dint worry about one of those.Already done. Great minds think alike :)JRgtar now has a pair of Alegree Old Timer "Hybrid 5 & 2" pickups with quick connectors soldered to the wires, and has a nice thick control plate with quick connector leads soldered to a better quality switch, good quality 250K pots, 0.047uF orange drop capacitor, treble bypass filter, and an electrosocket jack mounting plate.
I appreciate this might be at the lower end of skill levels for this board, but hoping you can advise nevertheless.
I’m putting together a basic tele kit and - on first build - the pickups sound pretty feeble. Whilst I work on the body finishing, which my Dad is advising on despite being in poor health, I’m looking at whether it’s worth upgrading the electrics and pickups: this may be a guitar I retain for sentimental reasons so would like it to sound ok. I’ve seen a wired loom and pickups for £180 from Alegree, but any other budget recommendations for doing that? I play blues, but really just after a classic tele sound at low cost.
Also, is it worth me trying to convert from a top loader to a through-body style? Will I hear a great difference?
Finally, good value tuner recommendations?!
Advice on above welcome! Thanks